--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "az@..." <az@...> wrote:
>
> That would be a good test as long as the frame of the motor is isolated from the machine frame ground to eliminate that as a noise path.
>
> AZ
>
>
>
>

Group: DynoMotion	Message: 7051	From: Lee Studley	Date: 3/19/2013
Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP

It's an interesting puzzle. Try the extension cord. interesting info goes along with AZ's good suggestions: http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/documents/EMIGuidelines.pdf Is the USB isolator, KFLOP, or control physically near the motor? This is a bit of a stretch: The isolators come in different schemes the most typical now is Giant-Magneto-Resistive(GMR) sensing which can be 'pinged' by really strong magnetic fields in close proximity, but I've never seen it happen. They modulate and demodulate the signal across the barrier in a way the cancels common noise. Try wrapping the spindle motor leads in ferrite cores. https://www.google.com/search?q=motor+ferrites+noise A pic of you machine and setup would help too. -Lee On 3/18/2013 6:48 PM, ericncn wrote: > Thank you all for the answers. > > I wouldn't modify the motor, connect wires to the brushes etc., if I start cutting off the connectors etc. I'll void its warranty. > > As a first attempt, I disconnected (again) DC GND of Kflop from earth GND. > It seemed to work, I used the machine one day and a half flawlessly, then the problem happened again twice in a row, then again, and again... > > Yes Kflop and spindle motor share the same multiple socket; the wiring doesn't seem undersized; tomorrow I'll try to connect the spindle motor to the other side of the workshop via the longest extension cable I have. > (This way Kflop and PC share same multiple socket, and spindle goes a different/longer route. Is that OK or should I try something different?) > > The strange thing is I never experienced this issue when I wasn't using the USB isolator... could it the that the spikes previously would traverse the USB cable, now that they can't, they hit the Kflop? > > EC > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> wrote: >> Allitle hard to tell, but yes I think its now the FLOP getting pinged. I >> think it sounds like a dip in the power (110vac?) is affecting >> the KFLOP. I do think this is a new issue. >> >> Maybe there's a fast voltage drop from the spindle motor inrush, If the >> motor/control and KFLOP's power >> supply share under sized wiring from the wall socket? I'd be curious to >> see if the KFLOP supply was powered from >> an extension cord to the other side of the shop. >> >> Could you post a picture of your wiring. Are you using a PC power supply >> for the KFLOP? >> >> >> On 3/16/2013 4:39 PM, ericncn wrote: >>> Hi Lee, >>> >>> there's NO connection between the Kflop and the spindle! (Except they are part of same machine, same mains AC and same earth ground). >>> >>> The spindle is a single phase AC motor (brushed) with his own small control card, basically you can turn it on, turn it off, adjust speed with a potentiometer. I do it manually. KFlop doesn't control it. >>> >>> I have NO Kanalog. >>> >>> So do you think the USB problem is not really a USB problem, but the Kflop going into an error state after getting hit by the spike? >>> And how can the spike reach the Kflop? Through the earth GND? > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: DynoMotion	Message: 7060	From: ericncn	Date: 3/19/2013
Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP

I tried the extension cord and got no faults for a whole day of work. But actually I turned the spindle on and off only a dozen times (I spent most time writing G-code). I need 2-3 more days with zero faults to state it worked. But then what I do, do I work permanently with the extension cord attached? Thank you for the useful readings. Maybe I'll found the answer there. The USB isolator is the OLIMEX as suggested by Tom: https://www.olimex.com/Products/Modules/Interface/USB-ISO/ and it's close to the PC, relatively close to the Kflop, and about 1 meter far from the spindle. I forgot to mention the Kflop is in a metal case missing the bottom (the floor). Maybe EMI noise entering from the bottom adds to the problem? I can't currently test if the floor makes any difference because of cables passing there (should make holes in the floor, but I would wait the system is in a final configuration before doing that!). Thank you, EC --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> wrote: > > It's an interesting puzzle. > Try the extension cord. > > interesting info goes along with AZ's good suggestions: > http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/documents/EMIGuidelines.pdf > > Is the USB isolator, KFLOP, or control physically near the motor? > > This is a bit of a stretch: The isolators come in different schemes the > most typical now is > Giant-Magneto-Resistive(GMR) sensing which can be 'pinged' by really > strong magnetic fields > in close proximity, but I've never seen it happen. They modulate and > demodulate the > signal across the barrier in a way the cancels common noise. > > Try wrapping the spindle motor leads in ferrite cores. > https://www.google.com/search?q=motor+ferrites+noise > > A pic of you machine and setup would help too. > > -Lee > > > > On 3/18/2013 6:48 PM, ericncn wrote: > > Thank you all for the answers. > > > > I wouldn't modify the motor, connect wires to the brushes etc., if I start cutting off the connectors etc. I'll void its warranty. > > > > As a first attempt, I disconnected (again) DC GND of Kflop from earth GND. > > It seemed to work, I used the machine one day and a half flawlessly, then the problem happened again twice in a row, then again, and again... > > > > Yes Kflop and spindle motor share the same multiple socket; the wiring doesn't seem undersized; tomorrow I'll try to connect the spindle motor to the other side of the workshop via the longest extension cable I have. > > (This way Kflop and PC share same multiple socket, and spindle goes a different/longer route. Is that OK or should I try something different?) > > > > The strange thing is I never experienced this issue when I wasn't using the USB isolator... could it the that the spikes previously would traverse the USB cable, now that they can't, they hit the Kflop? > > > > EC > > > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@> wrote: > >> Allitle hard to tell, but yes I think its now the FLOP getting pinged. I > >> think it sounds like a dip in the power (110vac?) is affecting > >> the KFLOP. I do think this is a new issue. > >> > >> Maybe there's a fast voltage drop from the spindle motor inrush, If the > >> motor/control and KFLOP's power > >> supply share under sized wiring from the wall socket? I'd be curious to > >> see if the KFLOP supply was powered from > >> an extension cord to the other side of the shop. > >> > >> Could you post a picture of your wiring. Are you using a PC power supply > >> for the KFLOP? > >> > >> > >> On 3/16/2013 4:39 PM, ericncn wrote: > >>> Hi Lee, > >>> > >>> there's NO connection between the Kflop and the spindle! (Except they are part of same machine, same mains AC and same earth ground). > >>> > >>> The spindle is a single phase AC motor (brushed) with his own small control card, basically you can turn it on, turn it off, adjust speed with a potentiometer. I do it manually. KFlop doesn't control it. > >>> > >>> I have NO Kanalog. > >>> > >>> So do you think the USB problem is not really a USB problem, but the Kflop going into an error state after getting hit by the spike? > >>> And how can the spike reach the Kflop? Through the earth GND?

Group: DynoMotion	Message: 7062	From: az@aimele.com	Date: 3/19/2013
Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP

You may be lucky and only have to add a couple of ferrite doughnuts to the AC cord or wires that supply your Spindle controller. They will "look" like long wires to the noise so you could use shorter AC leads.  You may be able to strip the outer jacket of your AC cord off to get closer to the conductors inside.  First try it with just the neutral and hot leads in the hole.  Then add the ground wire and see what happens.  Sizing the ferrite is also for experimentation.  If you're running the leads through once, Longer ferrites ( like tubes) are better than fat ones ( like bagels).  I've seen applications where I would use a ferrite bagel and wrap the leads through the hole three times to get good results. Check out the link provided by Lee Studley. It covers a lot of ground.   Good luck AZ Group: DynoMotion Message: 7064 From: Lee Studley Date: 3/19/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP I would do as AZ suggests and create 2 snubbers as described: Posted By: az9633... In cases like this the quickest way is with a bit of experimentation. The most likely suspect would be the brushes on the motor. I would put an RC network from brush to brush to slow down the apike. I would start with a value of about 0.1 MFD in series with a 100 ohm resistor and put the open lead of the resistor on one brush and the open lead of the capacitor on the other brush. http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=399-7610-ND http://capacitoredge.kemet.com/capedge2/DataSheet?pn=F720BQ104K300A 2-watt carbon 100ohm resistor http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1623929-2/A105983TB-ND/2390040 You might also put the same network acroas the AC line going into your speed controller and on the leads coming out of it that go to the motor. (Yes you end up with what looks like a copy of something already on the motor but the inductance of the wire between the motor and the drive really make them work like two separate circuits. If its a big spindle motor and If inrush is a problem  you can even go as far as adding a low ohms rated power resistor in series with the motor controller AC supply, then have a time delay relay short the resistor after a 1/4 to 1second delay. For my 25hp rotary convertor, I use hot water heater elements to get the motor fields magnetized in a soft start way, then a contractor close across them. Thanks Eric and AZ -Lee On 3/19/2013 4:03 PM, az@... wrote: You may be lucky and only have to add a couple of ferrite doughnuts to the AC cord or wires that supply your Spindle controller. They will "look" like long wires to the noise so you could use shorter AC leads.  You may be able to strip the outer jacket of your AC cord off to get closer to the conductors inside.  First try it with just the neutral and hot leads in the hole.  Then add the ground wire and see what happens.  Sizing the ferrite is also for experimentation.  If you're running the leads through once, Longer ferrites ( like tubes) are better than fat ones ( like bagels).  I've seen applications where I would use a ferrite bagel and wrap the leads through the hole three times to get good results. Check out the link provided by Lee Studley. It covers a lot of ground.   Good luck AZ Group: DynoMotion Message: 7078 From: ericncn Date: 3/21/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP As I have very urgent work to do with the mill and the extension cable apparently fixed the problem with turning on/off the spindle (it's over 2 days without faults now) I plan to just stick with it until the job is done, and do more experiments with the electronics later. But, today same problem happened when switching off the coolant pump! Actually my coolant pump is one of those small submersible aquarium pumps, it's about 35W power, and doesn't even have an earth ground. The plug only has two wires. Now I could even believe that the 1.5 Kw spindle motor controller could generate a spike strong enough to induce currents on the earth ground and confuse the KFLOP, but what about a small earth-less 35 W brushless motor? Tomorrow I'll try to connect the pump to the extension cable too. Or maybe I connect everything to the extension cable except the KFLOP. Or maybe the other way around (KFLOP to the extension cable, all the rest remains on same multiple socket). However this additional information may help understanding/narrowing down the nature of the problem? EC --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> wrote: > > > I would do as AZ suggests and create 2 snubbers as described: > > Posted By: /az9633... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/az9633%40ymail%2Ecom> / > > In cases like this the quickest way is with a bit of experimentation. > > The most likely suspect would be the brushes on the motor. I would put > > an RC > > network from brush to brush to slow down the apike. > > I would start with a value of about 0.1 MFD in series with a 100 ohm > > resistor > > and put the open lead of the resistor on one brush and the open lead > > of the > > capacitor on the other brush. > http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=399-7610-ND > http://capacitoredge.kemet.com/capedge2/DataSheet?pn=F720BQ104K300A > > 2-/watt/ carbon 100ohm resistor > http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1623929-2/A105983TB-ND/2390040 > > > > > You might also put the same network acroas the AC line going into your > > speed > > controller and on the leads coming out of it that go to the motor. > > (Yes you end > > up with what looks like a copy of something already on the motor but the > > inductance of the wire between the motor and the drive really make > > them work > > like two separate circuits. > > If its a big spindle motor and If inrush is a problem you can even go > as far as adding a low ohms > rated power resistor in series with the motor controller AC supply, then > have a time delay relay short > the resistor after a 1/4 to 1second delay. For my 25hp rotary convertor, > I use hot water heater > elements to get the motor fields magnetized in a soft start way, then a > contractor close across them. > > Thanks Eric and AZ > -Lee > > > > On 3/19/2013 4:03 PM, az@... wrote: > > > > > > You may be lucky and only have to add a couple of ferrite doughnuts to > > the AC cord or wires that supply your Spindle controller. > > They will "look" like long wires to the noise so you could use shorter > > AC leads. You may be able to strip the outer jacket of your AC cord > > off to get closer to the conductors inside. First try it with just > > the neutral and hot leads in the hole. Then add the ground wire and > > see what happens. Sizing the ferrite is also for experimentation. If > > you're running the leads through once, Longer ferrites ( like tubes) > > are better than fat ones ( like bagels). I've seen applications where > > I would use a ferrite bagel and wrap the leads through the hole three > > times to get good results. > > > > Check out the link provided by Lee Studley. It covers a lot of ground. > > > > Good luck > > AZ > > > > Group: DynoMotion Message: 7079 From: az@aimele.com Date: 3/21/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP You've run into the issues that many a machine builder finds.  By using the long power cord you effectively installed an isolation inductor so the noise gets reduced because of the length it has to travel and also the capacitance of the long cable laying on the ground will also serve as capacitor to short it to ground. No matter how small the coil (motor) is it can generate quite a bit of noise.  A relay coil that uses 0.05ma at 24 v will generate more than  600 v in a flyback surge (arc) when it is shut off .  This surge is not a current surge but a high frequency voltage spike that can ride on the surface of a wire and makes its way through isolation transformer coils an other things via thier capacitance etc.  Ferrites, Snubbers or arc suppressors (R-C networks) are used on electronically controlled devices  because they are usually the cheapest prevention / solution. You can bulletproof electronic controller from external interference but that usually involves adding an isolation / filter layer between the CPU and the outside world in addition to a good basic layout of the circuit.  It can get time consuming and expensive depending on how big the "bullets" are that you are trying to stop.  Finally, experimentation and redesign iterations to make sure you have all the bases covered so the expense in time and money can get pretty high. Good Luck with your machine AZ  Group: DynoMotion Message: 7080 From: Michael Rosenfield Date: 3/21/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP One thing that I didn't see mentioned - is the KFlop physically close to your spindle controller? Sometimes this makes a difference. My mill has 2 Hoffman enclosures (from a day when controls used lots of relays); I installed the computer and Kflop/Kanalog in one, and the spindle control in the other. My A/C line powered servo drives are in the same cabinet as the KFlop; they are powered through an isolation transformer in the spindle cabinet. Of course, there are wires going between the two cabinets, but the cabinets are apparently providing some shielding.   Michael Rosenfield   Group: DynoMotion Message: 7081 From: Lee Studley Date: 3/21/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP One possibility, given all these issues and some commonality: I'm slightly suspecting that you have a loose (terminal) connection somewhere on the lines going from (and including) the outlet back to your building junction box. Could be anywhere along that path. Or possibly under guage wiring. -Lee Group: DynoMotion Message: 7259 From: ericncn Date: 4/15/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP First of all, thank you all for the expert advice and the enlightening readings links and pardon me for the delay in getting back at this, I had extremely urgent work to do so I just stuck with the solution that worked (the long extension cable attached to the spindle's power cord). Now I have a little more time for writing and discussing. What is certain is that: - if all the plugs (PC, KFLOP+amplifiers, spindle, coolant pump) go to the same multiple socket, either turning on/off the spindle or the pump will cause a fault condition to the KFLOP; - if all the plugs are in the multiple socket except the spindle's, and that's connected to the long extension cable, the spindle doesn't disturb the KFLOP anymore. Not a single fault in several days of busy working. It works. (The coolant pump, of course, still makes trouble. I left it always on); - if all the plugs are in the same multiple socket (spindle included) except the KFLOP and that's connected to the long extension cable... with my great surprise, it didn't work! The spindle was still able to disturb the KFLOP. There's an USB isolator between KFLOP and PC. Everything together except spindle with long extension cable -> it works Everything together except KFLOP with long extension cable -> DOESn'T work Will try to answer more detailedly all your questions, later EC --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> wrote: > > One possibility, given all these issues and some commonality: > I'm slightly suspecting that you have a loose (terminal) connection > somewhere > on the lines going from (and including) the outlet back to your building > junction box. Could be anywhere along that path. > Or possibly under guage wiring. -Lee Group: DynoMotion Message: 7263 From: Lee Studley Date: 4/15/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP Attachments : Wiring_GoodBadUgly3-7263.jpg Wiring_GoodBadUgly2-7263.jpg Hi Eric, I was curious about what happened. I'm still thinking it could be a loose screw terminal, flakey groundfault/arc breaker/socket?, or one of those wire-push-in-QuickWire type connections somewhere in the house wiring line. They gave me issues in my house. Lower amperage loads worked fine, but larger inrushes would cause arc-noise that was disruptive. Some contractors even daisy-chain these push-in-lok outlets which violates some areas codes. That's what was done my house. I rewired every outlet in the the place. Some electricians might disagree and it is much faster and easier to do the QuikWire way, but If you have any "Man-ly" loads or serious power tools, I don't tolerate this method. I attached 3 images showing the GoodBadandUgly -Lee On 4/15/2013 9:18 AM, ericncn wrote: > First of all, thank you all for the expert advice and the enlightening readings links and pardon me for the delay in getting back at this, I had extremely urgent work to do so I just stuck with the solution that worked (the long extension cable attached to the spindle's power cord). Now I have a little more time for writing and discussing. > > What is certain is that: > > - if all the plugs (PC, KFLOP+amplifiers, spindle, coolant pump) go to the same multiple socket, either turning on/off the spindle or the pump will cause a fault condition to the KFLOP; > > - if all the plugs are in the multiple socket except the spindle's, and that's connected to the long extension cable, the spindle doesn't disturb the KFLOP anymore. Not a single fault in several days of busy working. It works. (The coolant pump, of course, still makes trouble. I left it always on); > > - if all the plugs are in the same multiple socket (spindle included) except the KFLOP and that's connected to the long extension cable... with my great surprise, it didn't work! The spindle was still able to disturb the KFLOP. > > There's an USB isolator between KFLOP and PC. > > Everything together except spindle with long extension cable -> it works > > Everything together except KFLOP with long extension cable -> DOESn'T work > > Will try to answer more detailedly all your questions, later > EC > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> wrote: >> One possibility, given all these issues and some commonality: >> I'm slightly suspecting that you have a loose (terminal) connection >> somewhere >> on the lines going from (and including) the outlet back to your building >> junction box. Could be anywhere along that path. >> Or possibly under guage wiring. -Lee > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >   @@attachment@@ Group: DynoMotion Message: 7264 From: Lee Studley Date: 4/15/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP Attachments : QuikWireWiring_GoodBadUgly-7264.jpg This is a good link where I plagiarized photos. http://www.handymanhowto.com/2011/01/17/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/ I also miss-labled BackWiring which has the solid clamping action instead of the QuickWire/Backstab method On 4/15/2013 9:18 AM, ericncn wrote: > First of all, thank you all for the expert advice and the enlightening readings links and pardon me for the delay in getting back at this, I had extremely urgent work to do so I just stuck with the solution that worked (the long extension cable attached to the spindle's power cord). Now I have a little more time for writing and discussing. > > What is certain is that: > > - if all the plugs (PC, KFLOP+amplifiers, spindle, coolant pump) go to the same multiple socket, either turning on/off the spindle or the pump will cause a fault condition to the KFLOP; > > - if all the plugs are in the multiple socket except the spindle's, and that's connected to the long extension cable, the spindle doesn't disturb the KFLOP anymore. Not a single fault in several days of busy working. It works. (The coolant pump, of course, still makes trouble. I left it always on); > > - if all the plugs are in the same multiple socket (spindle included) except the KFLOP and that's connected to the long extension cable... with my great surprise, it didn't work! The spindle was still able to disturb the KFLOP. > > There's an USB isolator between KFLOP and PC. > > Everything together except spindle with long extension cable -> it works > > Everything together except KFLOP with long extension cable -> DOESn'T work > > Will try to answer more detailedly all your questions, later > EC > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> wrote: >> One possibility, given all these issues and some commonality: >> I'm slightly suspecting that you have a loose (terminal) connection >> somewhere >> on the lines going from (and including) the outlet back to your building >> junction box. Could be anywhere along that path. >> Or possibly under guage wiring. -Lee > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >   @@attachment@@ Group: DynoMotion Message: 7279 From: Michael Rosenfield Date: 4/16/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP [3 Attachments] Remember that most houses (and everything else) are built by the low bidder - not a good way to get quality. Yes there are standards, but again, they are minimums, based primarily on fire reduction, not necessarily on trouble-free operation. I NEVER use push-in wiring for anything carrying current! When I built my house in Phoenix in the mid-90's, I marked up the electrical drawing to add extra outlets, add extra breaker panels  (one for the garage, especially), and specified ONLY backwire-stranded outlets. (These clamp the wire inserted from the rear with a screw clamp, and can take stranded as well as solid wire.) I couldn't even get anyone to bid the job! They'd only do it to code, which meant a lower standard that I was willing to accept. I ended up wiring the entire house myself - roped in all my buddies, too, of course! I've had 0 electrical issues in 16 years, and I run welders, a 5hp compressor, and several 2hp motors, as well as the usual household stuff. Michael Rosenfield   Group: DynoMotion Message: 7281 From: Lee Studley Date: 4/16/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP HI Micheal, Agreed wholeheartedly. I'm in Phoenix up by Carefree hwy and I17. Are you aware of the phx valley metal yahoo? If not join. We all do how-to meetings etc. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/valleymetal/ -Lee On 4/16/2013 8:12 AM, Michael Rosenfield wrote: Remember that most houses (and everything else) are built by the low bidder - not a good way to get quality. Yes there are standards, but again, they are minimums, based primarily on fire reduction, not necessarily on trouble-free operation. I NEVER use push-in wiring for anything carrying current! When I built my house in Phoenix in the mid-90's, I marked up the electrical drawing to add extra outlets, add extra breaker panels  (one for the garage, especially), and specified ONLY backwire-stranded outlets. (These clamp the wire inserted from the rear with a screw clamp, and can take stranded as well as solid wire.) I couldn't even get anyone to bid the job! They'd only do it to code, which meant a lower standard that I was willing to accept. I ended up wiring the entire house myself - roped in all my buddies, too, of course! I've had 0 electrical issues in 16 years, and I run welders, a 5hp c ompressor, and several 2hp motors, as well as the usual household stuff. Michael Rosenfield   Group: DynoMotion Message: 7284 From: Brad Murry Date: 4/16/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP Small world!   -Brad Murry(Fountain Hills)   From: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lee Studley Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 10:32 AM To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com Cc: Michael Rosenfield Subject: Re: [DynoMotion] Re: grounding the KFLOP     HI Micheal, Agreed wholeheartedly. I'm in Phoenix up by Carefree hwy and I17. Are you aware of the phx valley metal yahoo? If not join. We all do how-to meetings etc. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/valleymetal/ -Lee On 4/16/2013 8:12 AM, Michael Rosenfield wrote: Remember that most houses (and everything else) are built by the low bidder - not a good way to get quality. Yes there are standards, but again, they are minimums, based primarily on fire reduction, not necessarily on trouble-free operation. I NEVER use push-in wiring for anything carrying current! When I built my house in Phoenix in the mid-90's, I marked up the electrical drawing to add extra outlets, add extra breaker panels  (one for the garage, especially), and specified ONLY backwire-stranded outlets. (These clamp the wire inserted from the rear with a screw clamp, and can take stranded as well as solid wire.) I couldn't even get anyone to bid the job! They'd only do it to code, which meant a lower standard that I was willing to accept. I ended up wiring the entire house myself - roped in all my buddies, too, of course! I've had 0 electrical issues in 16 years, and I run welders, a 5hp c ompressor, and several 2hp motors, as well as the usual household stuff. Michael Rosenfield   To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com; ericnc@... From: indigo_red@... Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 12:33:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [DynoMotion] Re: grounding the KFLOP [3 Attachments]   [Attachment(s) from Lee Studley included below] Hi Eric, I was curious about what happened. I'm still thinking it could be a loose screw terminal, flakey groundfault/arc breaker/socket?, or one of those wire-push-in-QuickWire type connections somewhere in the house wiring line. They gave me issues in my house. Lower amperage loads worked fine, but larger inrushes would cause arc-noise that was disruptive. Some contractors even daisy-chain these push-in-lok outlets which violates some areas codes. That's what was done my house. I rewired every outlet in the the place. Some electricians might disagree and it is much faster and easier to do the QuikWire way, but If you have any "Man-ly" loads or serious power tools, I don't tolerate this method. I attached 3 images showing the GoodBadandUgly -Lee On 4/15/2013 9:18 AM, ericncn wrote: > First of all, thank you all for the expert advice and the enlightening readings links and pardon me for the delay in getting back at this, I had extremely urgent work to do so I just stuck with the solution that worked (the long extension cable attached to the spindle's power cord). Now I have a little more time for writing and discussing. > > What is certain is that: > > - if all the plugs (PC, KFLOP+amplifiers, spindle, coolant pump) go to the same multiple socket, either turning on/off the spindle or the pump will cause a fault condition to the KFLOP; > > - if all the plugs are in the multiple socket except the spindle's, and that's connected to the long extension cable, the spindle doesn't disturb the KFLOP anymore. Not a single fault in several days of busy working. It works. (The coolant pump, of course, still makes trouble. I left it always on); > > - if all the plugs are in the same multiple socket (spindle included) except the KFLOP and that's connected to the long extension cable... with my great surprise, it didn't work! The spindle was still able to disturb the KFLOP. > > There's an USB isolator between KFLOP and PC. > > Everything together except spindle with long extension cable -> it works > > Everything together except KFLOP with long extension cable -> DOESn'T work > > Will try to answer more detailedly all your questions, later > EC > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> wrote: >> One possibility, given all these issues and some commonality: >> I'm slightly suspecting that you have a loose (terminal) connection >> somewhere >> on the lines going from (and including) the outlet back to your building >> junction box. Could be anywhere along that path. >> Or possibly under guage wiring. -Lee > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >   Group: DynoMotion Message: 7691 From: ericncn Date: 6/19/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP First of all I do apologize for not replying earlier; I've been overwhelmed by trouble (not only KFLOP and CNC related), honestly I wasn't able to reply all the questions or perform all the experiments that were suggested. And anyway, my spindle motor has finally broken for the second time (yes, at the end it was clearly shortened to ground!) which was part of the problem, if not most of it. While waiting it to be fixed or replaced, I need to address other areas of the machine. I'll start different threads for that. Thanks to all who replied and suggested solutions. EC --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> wrote: > > This is a good link where I plagiarized photos. > http://www.handymanhowto.com/2011/01/17/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/ > > I also miss-labled BackWiring which has the solid clamping action > instead of the QuickWire/Backstab method > > > > > On 4/15/2013 9:18 AM, ericncn wrote: > > First of all, thank you all for the expert advice and the enlightening readings links and pardon me for the delay in getting back at this, I had extremely urgent work to do so I just stuck with the solution that worked (the long extension cable attached to the spindle's power cord). Now I have a little more time for writing and discussing. > > > > What is certain is that: > > > > - if all the plugs (PC, KFLOP+amplifiers, spindle, coolant pump) go to the same multiple socket, either turning on/off the spindle or the pump will cause a fault condition to the KFLOP; > > > > - if all the plugs are in the multiple socket except the spindle's, and that's connected to the long extension cable, the spindle doesn't disturb the KFLOP anymore. Not a single fault in several days of busy working. It works. (The coolant pump, of course, still makes trouble. I left it always on); > > > > - if all the plugs are in the same multiple socket (spindle included) except the KFLOP and that's connected to the long extension cable... with my great surprise, it didn't work! The spindle was still able to disturb the KFLOP. > > > > There's an USB isolator between KFLOP and PC. > > > > Everything together except spindle with long extension cable -> it works > > > > Everything together except KFLOP with long extension cable -> DOESn'T work > > > > Will try to answer more detailedly all your questions, later > > EC > > > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@> wrote: > >> One possibility, given all these issues and some commonality: > >> I'm slightly suspecting that you have a loose (terminal) connection > >> somewhere > >> on the lines going from (and including) the outlet back to your building > >> junction box. Could be anywhere along that path. > >> Or possibly under guage wiring. -Lee > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links Group: DynoMotion Message: 7771 From: tapiolarikka Date: 6/24/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP Hi Eric! I run across this same problem with coolant pump messing up control system. I have a contactor/relay controlled three phase coolant pump. After a short google search, long wondering of the used terms and even longer rethinking if I understood the used terms correctly I added RC-networks across contactor contacts and varistors from each phase to neutral and neutral to ground. After these mods I haven't had a single incident relating to coolant pump. If your spindle is contactor/relay driven I think it also needs arc supression. Rgds, Tapio --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "ericncn" <ericnc@...> wrote: > > First of all I do apologize for not replying earlier; I've been overwhelmed by trouble (not only KFLOP and CNC related), honestly I wasn't able to reply all the questions or perform all the experiments that were suggested. And anyway, my spindle motor has finally broken for the second time (yes, at the end it was clearly shortened to ground!) which was part of the problem, if not most of it. > While waiting it to be fixed or replaced, I need to address other areas of the machine. I'll start different threads for that. > > Thanks to all who replied and suggested solutions. > > EC > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@> wrote: > > > > This is a good link where I plagiarized photos. > > http://www.handymanhowto.com/2011/01/17/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/ > > > > I also miss-labled BackWiring which has the solid clamping action > > instead of the QuickWire/Backstab method > > > > > > > > > > On 4/15/2013 9:18 AM, ericncn wrote: > > > First of all, thank you all for the expert advice and the enlightening readings links and pardon me for the delay in getting back at this, I had extremely urgent work to do so I just stuck with the solution that worked (the long extension cable attached to the spindle's power cord). Now I have a little more time for writing and discussing. > > > > > > What is certain is that: > > > > > > - if all the plugs (PC, KFLOP+amplifiers, spindle, coolant pump) go to the same multiple socket, either turning on/off the spindle or the pump will cause a fault condition to the KFLOP; > > > > > > - if all the plugs are in the multiple socket except the spindle's, and that's connected to the long extension cable, the spindle doesn't disturb the KFLOP anymore. Not a single fault in several days of busy working. It works. (The coolant pump, of course, still makes trouble. I left it always on); > > > > > > - if all the plugs are in the same multiple socket (spindle included) except the KFLOP and that's connected to the long extension cable... with my great surprise, it didn't work! The spindle was still able to disturb the KFLOP. > > > > > > There's an USB isolator between KFLOP and PC. > > > > > > Everything together except spindle with long extension cable -> it works > > > > > > Everything together except KFLOP with long extension cable -> DOESn'T work > > > > > > Will try to answer more detailedly all your questions, later > > > EC > > > > > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@> wrote: > > >> One possibility, given all these issues and some commonality: > > >> I'm slightly suspecting that you have a loose (terminal) connection > > >> somewhere > > >> on the lines going from (and including) the outlet back to your building > > >> junction box. Could be anywhere along that path. > > >> Or possibly under guage wiring. -Lee > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > Group: DynoMotion Message: 7939 From: ericncn Date: 7/15/2013 Subject: Re: grounding the KFLOP Hi Tapio, when you say same problem do you mean your KFLOP was losing the USB connection when turning the pump on or off, too? Yes my spindle motor was contactor driven (sort of) but at this point I trashed it and built an entirely new solution with a different motor and a VFD for controlling its speed. Hope it'll work better. --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "tapiolarikka" <tapio.larikka@...> wrote: > > Hi Eric! > > I run across this same problem with coolant pump messing up control system. I have a contactor/relay controlled three phase coolant pump. > > After a short google search, long wondering of the used terms and even longer rethinking if I understood the used terms correctly I > added RC-networks across contactor contacts and varistors from each phase to neutral and neutral to ground. After these mods I haven't > had a single incident relating to coolant pump. > > If your spindle is contactor/relay driven I think it also needs arc > supression. > > Rgds, > Tapio > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "ericncn" <ericnc@> wrote: > > > > First of all I do apologize for not replying earlier; I've been overwhelmed by trouble (not only KFLOP and CNC related), honestly I wasn't able to reply all the questions or perform all the experiments that were suggested. And anyway, my spindle motor has finally broken for the second time (yes, at the end it was clearly shortened to ground!) which was part of the problem, if not most of it. > > While waiting it to be fixed or replaced, I need to address other areas of the machine. I'll start different threads for that. > > > > Thanks to all who replied and suggested solutions. > > > > EC > > > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@> wrote: > > > > > > This is a good link where I plagiarized photos. > > > http://www.handymanhowto.com/2011/01/17/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/ > > > > > > I also miss-labled BackWiring which has the solid clamping action > > > instead of the QuickWire/Backstab method > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/15/2013 9:18 AM, ericncn wrote: > > > > First of all, thank you all for the expert advice and the enlightening readings links and pardon me for the delay in getting back at this, I had extremely urgent work to do so I just stuck with the solution that worked (the long extension cable attached to the spindle's power cord). Now I have a little more time for writing and discussing. > > > > > > > > What is certain is that: > > > > > > > > - if all the plugs (PC, KFLOP+amplifiers, spindle, coolant pump) go to the same multiple socket, either turning on/off the spindle or the pump will cause a fault condition to the KFLOP; > > > > > > > > - if all the plugs are in the multiple socket except the spindle's, and that's connected to the long extension cable, the spindle doesn't disturb the KFLOP anymore. Not a single fault in several days of busy working. It works. (The coolant pump, of course, still makes trouble. I left it always on); > > > > > > > > - if all the plugs are in the same multiple socket (spindle included) except the KFLOP and that's connected to the long extension cable... with my great surprise, it didn't work! The spindle was still able to disturb the KFLOP. > > > > > > > > There's an USB isolator between KFLOP and PC. > > > > > > > > Everything together except spindle with long extension cable -> it works > > > > > > > > Everything together except KFLOP with long extension cable -> DOESn'T work > > > > > > > > Will try to answer more detailedly all your questions, later > > > > EC > > > > > > > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@> wrote: > > > >> One possibility, given all these issues and some commonality: > > > >> I'm slightly suspecting that you have a loose (terminal) connection > > > >> somewhere > > > >> on the lines going from (and including) the outlet back to your building > > > >> junction box. Could be anywhere along that path. > > > >> Or possibly under guage wiring. -Lee > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >